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Family Battler

Quick Info:

Article maintained by:
Aranesh

Last updated 2022-10-31

Keeping in style with previous achievements, patch 8.1 brings a new family challenge: Family Battler

The achievement is made out of 10 sub-achievements, each asking you to complete 15 Battle for Azeroth world quests with pets from a specific family only.
Since there are more than 15 world quests possible, you can pick and choose which ones to finish with each family.

Update with Patch 8.2
Since a recent change, the tamers can be fought repeatedly even if their world quest is not currently up! That means you can go through each tamer and family one after the next without having to stop.
Kudos to Terrace for spotting it!
Xu-Fu can scan this section for the most suitable strategies according to your preferences and show the required pets.
Pick a family below to check which pets you need.






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Mishkka

wrote on 2022-11-01 21:30:45

Anyone have an import of all the pets /w tdscript in the notes of the each team? Someone posted a pastebin of the teams but im hoping to get the tdscripts with it as well

Matts

wrote on 2022-09-18 11:24:33

The pets show as Yellow if my pet doesn't meet the level or quality or breed required. And Red if I don't have the pet at all.

I think it should be Red for missing breed too, since you can't upgrade your breed, you need to capture a new pet, same as if you didn't have the pet at all.

pengu

wrote on 2020-11-24 07:01:37

Anyone know which bfa battles are one of the quickest?

Mystborn

wrote on 2020-08-10 02:22:30

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but the pet collection import doesn't seem to be working properly; I have 551 pets at max and the collection only shows 440, even after several logs and refreshes. It's making the pet checker here screwy. Import is working fine over on WarcraftPets, so I imagine it must be an issue with the updater here.

Aranesh

wrote on 2020-08-10 03:35:10

Hey! Just had a look at your collection and it appears to be showing correctly now. Or do you still have this issue?

Mystborn

wrote on 2020-09-26 00:13:17

My Chitterspine Skitterling, which is a blue 25, still isn't registering in the requirements list for Fel Beasts of Argus at all, but the rest seem to be appearing. I didn't realize the pet only counts as maximized if it's a fully leveled rare (edited)

Gráinne

wrote on 2020-09-26 01:00:34

These strats are tested for Blue 25s. If yours is not a fully leveled rare, there is no reason to believe it will work, so I would say any such should not be incuded in a pet checker.

Eztlee wrote on 2020-06-04 17:48:38

It would be helpful if the tamers names were listed with (or instead of) the battle name since the achievements have the tamer names.

Alauraa#2331

wrote on 2020-07-29 12:56:25

yes, I already gave them a notice that I would like to see the tamers names too or a mouseover with the tamers name. They were already working on making that come true is what they told me ^^

Aranesh

wrote on 2020-07-29 13:14:37

yeeeeeh... I keep pushing it back in priority. Sorry!!
I'll move it up a bit in my todo list. With the new pet tables out of the way I can spend some time focusing on bug fixing and smaller quality of life improvements again :-)

It'll not be before next week, though. Work is keeping me super busy during the days and I'm spending the weekend away in nature, without a computer :D

Thanks for the nudge, though!

tarabeza

wrote on 2020-07-31 13:01:24

thanks for the help, this is amazing

Aranesh

wrote on 2020-08-05 07:16:19

All done :)

tarabeza

wrote on 2020-08-10 11:02:05

you are amazing, thank you so much

delk#1857

wrote on 2020-08-10 18:59:11

Can the new pet table on this page also be updated to show the tamer name instead of the quest name? That would be really helpful. Amazing tool - thanks!

Alauraa#2331

wrote on 2020-08-12 18:49:28

@Aranesh, Thanks alot for the updated names/quest names ^_^

Aranesh

wrote on 2020-08-13 04:45:58

No prob :)
It's changed in the tables as well now @delk

Kaxer

wrote on 2020-08-19 14:18:34

tyvm Aranesh this is great

JarofFlies

wrote on 2019-08-01 16:45:29

The flying one seems to be the easiest one. You can do a lot of it with just Direbeak, Ikky and Foulfeather. So I'll probably focus on that since I don't have a lot of other pets

Gráinne

wrote on 2018-12-18 06:15:45

OK, so I've started this (late, I know) and am in no rush to get through it. I'll do some of the easy families while a quest is up that I was going to do anyway, maybe a few more, and leave myself with the hard ones as a treat for later.

Back in Legion I made Basic [Family] teams on general PvP principles, and wrangled my way through with those.

I'm not feeling especially motivated around the simple stuff now, so I'm throwing together a few unthinking cheese teams that mostly work on most battles, without having to set something up specifically for every one. If you have a lot of pets, and dupes, do you have some generic teams like this?

Dragons: 3 Nexus Whelplings. Throw in a Conflag Dragonhawk or two against mechs. Lots of other possibilities if needed - EPW, NFD.

Mechanicals: 3 Iron Starlettes. May throw in a Bling if I find a need. I'm thinking Rogue Azerite and Captured Evil will be a problem, when I get to them.

Magic: 2 Hyjal Wisps with Blast, dodge, Wish, and a third magic pet chosen for the battle. S/S Arcane Gorger is possible. Also something with Arcane Storm and/or Surge of Power, depending on the case.

Aquatic: P/P Emperor Crab, Puddle Terror to mitigate flyers with Sunlight and Nature's Ward, otherwise a second Crab or Crawdad, P/P Fen Crab for the Rip/Blood nuke, though Spineclaw with the heal might be better now I think of it.

Elemental: 2 Autumnal Sproutlings with Fist/Heal/Whatever. Azeriti packs a serious punch with Crystal Overload -> Azerite Spike. You can get very clever with Elementals if you need to, but mostly you don't need to.

Undead: My trusty Blighted Squirrels that I've loved since Mists come into their own here, with Woodchipper / Crouch / Stampede. Just as in PvP, the racial is a big bonus.

Flyers: Three Ikkys with Black Claw / Flock. Or a Foulfeather. Anything with Flock, really. Darkness is not what it was, but the Warden's Owl still has some juice, and Darkness is worth trying. If that doesn't work, then we have to think about Teroclaws, Moths, Bloodbeak or similar Rain Dance/Noc Strike combo.

Beasts: Three Zandalaris with Black Claw / Hunting Party. Shinchomper's Aura of Gonk is hilarious; just don't bring it out until Gonk is ready. Thaumaturgical Piglet is your answer to flyers.

Humanoid: The hardest family for me to find an unthinking team. Idols are possible, rolling over everything, but slow. Rotten Little Helper does a lot of damage. Squirky and Terky bring interesting resources, but require thought and planning.

Gotowned wrote on 2019-07-22 10:42:42

A great list of pets and strategies! Just to add a tiny note on the end. Humanoid: Rotten Helper, Winter's Little Helper and Father Winter's Helper all synergise quite nicely as a mindless 3. Just line up the stuns and nuke away.

Ainsley#1829

wrote on 2019-07-14 21:58:55

Could we get one of those helpful "required" lists like Family Familiar has?

Fidget232

wrote on 2019-07-12 12:31:43

Is there anything out there like the ready checker for Legion that lets you know what pets you need to complete this?

Toenail

wrote on 2019-06-23 03:26:46

Many thanks to everyone who made this whole achievement/pet reward much easier to do.!

Oona

wrote on 2018-12-20 21:42:58

It'd be nice to have some starred or highlighted tamers or even just a thread with recommended tamers for this achievement. So far in my battle journey, I definitely recommend "What's the Buzz?" Most fights there only require one specific pet.

Gráinne

wrote on 2018-12-21 23:12:27

There are ... 19? ... possible tamers, with 15 required. So, which 4 to avoid, you mean?

I'd say Rogue Azerite, Captured Evil, and Not So Bad Down Here are the only three likely to give any trouble on any family, if you have the pets. And flipping through strats, I haven't noticed a need for any exotic pets. By now, I've done 12 using almost entirely the cheese teams I listed below, with some small substitutions.

Maybe someone can think of another that can give problems?

But even if so, you don't have to complete the same 15 tamers on all families. If you have a problem with Not So Bad Down Here / Elemental, you can make that Elemental number up from another tamer somewhere else.

Oona

wrote on 2018-12-22 20:35:41

That's true, Tamers to "avoid" would be better. I'm thinking of players who prefer to go from tamer to tamer and want to obtain the achievement in one go with the fewest stops and avoid tamers with difficult family battles.

Gráinne

wrote on 2018-12-22 21:19:24

Well, I just finished the achieve. I went tamer to tamer, and simply ploughed through all ten families without consulting guides.

I had actually completed Not So Bad Down Here except for Elemental and Beast on my first day, before I wrote. I didn't go back for that, although I'm sure Beast is not hard; I can believe Elemental is.

Everything went smoothly except Grady Prett Pack Leader / Humanoid. I did work my way through it eventually, and I see Setione has a strat that looks to be a more reliable refinement of the basic idea that eventually worked for me, with Frolicker and Terky. Those speeds are hard to handle!

Toenail

wrote on 2019-06-19 21:42:33

of the 9 I have done so far, Kwint (Not So bad Down Here) was the biggest PITA by far. not just for elementals either. MANY attempts on multiple families. various shark abilities are randon order used.

Odracir

wrote on 2019-03-25 20:00:00

i was browsing the achievement on Wowhead and came across a post by Terminton that helped me ALOT. He shares a pastebin link with all 150 teams, so all we've got to do is import it to rematch.
Here's the link https://pastebin.com/Fg4MYguM
And the link to the thread Link

Again, all credit goes to Terminton !!

Greatspirit

wrote on 2019-04-28 06:53:36

I thank you for putting this list of Terminton , it was very helpfull and time saving. I do however want people to know "Pack Leader" is not on here , so please add before going out to do it.

MariaEval wrote on 2019-05-20 12:03:12

Hi, there's nothing for Voldun it seems ? Or did my script break ?

rosse59

wrote on 2019-06-13 23:49:57

Sorry for being dumb, but how the hell do you use a Pastebin. This is brand new to me. Where do you "import" it to?

Gráinne

wrote on 2019-06-14 00:43:06

You must have the Rematch addon for this. If you don't, go to curseforge.com and install it.

1. Open the Pastebin link https://pastebin.com/Fg4MYguM
2. Highlight and Copy all the text.
3. Open Rematch window.
4. Choose Teams tab.
5. Choose Import Teams
6. Paste the text you copied. I think you then have to confirm "OK"

Toenail

wrote on 2019-06-15 13:27:23

trying to load that Rematch pastebin crashed WoW. don't know if it was the size or not but there was a spinning progress circle that ran for a while before the crash. I did install the Family Familiar Helper before trying to import the teams from pastebin.

Gráinne

wrote on 2019-06-15 15:19:32

WoW. Well then copy the pastebin to Notepad. Then just sslect and copy a bit of it (now long a bit? I don't know. Try maybe 20-30 lines at a time) and do the Import Teams with that much. Then select the next 20-30 lines and go again.

Psydesho

wrote on 2019-02-09 08:58:26

I just did a WQ tamer and followed up with two additional families after the initial one. And didn't get credit for the last two families. So is this a glitch or something?

dokeefe1986

wrote on 2019-02-09 18:26:48

usually when this happens to me, be sure to double and triple check that every single pet in your team is the correct family. sometimes it seems like a pet should be in the correct family, but it really isn't. also, make sure you or your addon isnt sticking a level pet into the strat by accident. that has happened to me in the past also. i only needed one or two pets to beat the tamer so i didnt even notice that the third slot was the wrong pet type. good luck. let us know!

Bunnies wrote on 2019-03-03 08:06:28

i've had that happen when I accidentally had a level 24 pet in the lineup. ALL pets have to be 25!!!!!

Quintette

wrote on 2019-03-12 13:30:27

I second Bunnies reply. I did not get credit for the fights on some occasions either and found out it was because not all my pets (in the correct family) were level 25.

Gally022912#1853

wrote on 2019-03-31 09:03:31

Yep, I also had that happen and then noticed I had a lvl 24 pet. Leveled him and then it completed.

IseultTheIdle

wrote on 2019-06-04 13:54:27

Blessings on your little bunny head, Bunnies. That was my problem today.

Kapira

wrote on 2019-01-13 16:07:50

I made a google docs spreadsheet for keeping track outside of the game, should anyone desire one :) Let me know if there's some quality-of-life change you might want added to it and I'll see what I can do (not super familiar with Sheets).
Link

Bexist#1519

wrote on 2019-02-01 11:57:00

Thank you! <3

Kauz#1319

wrote on 2018-11-10 20:36:16

The Non-Trainer fights (Unbreakable, This Little Piggy, Jammer, Crawg, and Mind Controlling Plants) should be removed from this page, much like they were in Legion. They are not required for the achievement.

DragonsAfterDark

wrote on 2018-11-12 00:23:20

That makes me a little sad, especially since I think I finally found a critter strat that worked for Bloodtusk, heh.

Killigraphy#2705

wrote on 2019-01-06 05:17:11

I agree, it would be fine!

Askania

wrote on 2019-02-01 05:48:24

Why remove them ok they aren't in the list but so what there are strats listed that may not be noticed under the world quests and every bit of info is useful.

jdf#1850

wrote on 2019-01-24 09:36:56

curious how you all take this on. Do you focus say on one tamer and go through all the families until that one tamer is done or do you go with a family of pets first and travel around until that family is done?

DragonsAfterDark

wrote on 2019-01-24 10:46:38

I choose a zone, and do all the tamers in that zone. When I'm fighting a tamer, I do each family before moving on to the next tamer.

dokeefe1986

wrote on 2019-01-25 22:55:35

assuming you have the roster, definitely just run through all the families while you are at the trainer.. i imagine it would be quite time consuming and inefficient to travel that circuit ten times if you were to them one family at a time. there are other reasons also, like spotting weaknesses in your roster, missing pets to target, or maybe just determine that you should skip a certain family for a specific trainer altogether.

Lolfix wrote on 2019-01-26 19:46:15

Yeah thats how i go about these type of achs as well, go to a zone, pick a tamer, rotate the 10 families through, next tamer in that zone. Zone done -> next until achs pops. Got full roster, not doing dailies anyway, so its a one-time project thing.

Zuckerguss

wrote on 2019-01-27 12:01:33

I got kind of burned out on pet battles doing Family Familiar back in Legion, so I don't have the energy to complete a tamer in one go. I go to a tamer who's up as a world quest that day and do a couple of families. It will take me longer to finish, but at a more tolerable pace.

Quartzfire

wrote on 2019-01-27 15:31:58

I'm with Zuckerguss on this one - I'm in no rush, so just do a couple of the whichever world quests are up each day for the achieve, and maybe a few that reward battle stones or pet charms and move on to do other things. I'm still building up my pet teams so if I don't have a team I might come back to the fight at a later stage when I have enough charms to buy an upgrade stone, or see if I have an alternative team - either way I'm having loads of fun, and can see merit to doing all the tamers in a zone as well which means not going back there as other posts have mentioned.

Veph

wrote on 2018-12-28 01:52:43

Any chance we could get the Trainer names in the guide somewhere alongside the World Quest names? I keep track of my achievement mostly through the Trainers, since they're listed in the criteria, and I'm always having to look up or second guess which trainer belongs to which WQ. I know it's a minor thing, but it would be super helpful. Thanks!

Kimberleigh wrote on 2018-12-29 13:48:17

Me too, it wasn't a problem before the Family Battler achievement but now I keep forgetting the name of the trainer.

ermrac

wrote on 2018-12-30 21:55:19

Adding my feedback that this would be a good idea

robh wrote on 2018-12-31 14:39:48

This was one thing I thought would be nice too, but have since noticed if you mouse over the "vs" (the specific quest name) at the top of each strategy page there's a pop up box of the trainers name.

dokeefe1986

wrote on 2019-01-01 08:06:28

Here is a link to a spreadsheet I made that has this info. feel free to make a copy.

Link

Hearte

wrote on 2019-01-01 12:27:32

Awesome, thanks! Any chance of adding a column with coordinates as well?

dokeefe1986

wrote on 2019-01-02 04:21:27

anyone can add anything to theirs. just hit file > make a copy. edit as desired.

Sarthorius

wrote on 2019-01-21 18:18:43

I too would like this to be updated on the site too, to be more in line with the past ones, and more accurate to other (and newer) people. You no longer need the WQ up to be able to fight them, since the 8.1 changes, and instead of having to mouseover on the WQ name to see the trainer, where on some people's PC that might take some while to load, I think it would be better to 'swap' their naming, putting the name instead and the WQ on tooltip, or, tooltip to show the trainer's image in-game.

Remte

wrote on 2019-01-14 05:06:17

If you haven't looked it up, there's an addon Family Familiar Helper. It keeps this name because it started as one, but it includes all other Family X achievements including the newest one. It was created by the very Rematch's author, Gello, and he took a time during Christmas Eve to update it for the newest iteration. ❤

Of course, spreadsheets are a cool thing to keep track outside the game, while the API still stays wonky. :)

Servv

wrote on 2018-12-14 00:59:22

OK not trying to be a massive buttkisser, but I just finished Family Battler and want to thank all the users who contributed strats to the article, as well as special thanks to DragonAfterDark, whose strats I followed for 85% of the fights.

FYI the 4 Trainers I left untouched:
Kwint (duh)
Eddie Fixit
Fizzie Sparkwhistle
Ellie Vern

Izeiy wrote on 2018-12-14 05:55:41

Finished this up as well tonight. I feel like I would rank it the easiest out of all of the Family meta achievements. Strategies are solid by Dragon. A few by others as well and a few I made as I went. I only used 51 bandages which is a huge success compared to the 281 I used on Argus. Great guide, here's to the next one.

DragonsAfterDark

wrote on 2018-12-16 07:33:45

Happy to help :)

Daedrynn

wrote on 2018-12-30 19:32:24

DragonAfterDark: I also want to thank you. Some of the strats didn't work for me, and I made a few suggestions on some, but overall it was tremendously helpful. I really appreciate the incredible amount of time, patience, and work goes into this. Thanks so much for your efforts.

DragonsAfterDark

wrote on 2018-12-30 20:03:49

No problem. As for suggestions, I always appreciate when people help me streamline the strats. With most of these fights being RNG heavy, the choices are made based on what worked the majority of the time no matter what moves the enemy makes, and for as many breeds as possible.

I welcome people to improvise during strats if they can get other moves in, but if I haven't added them in, it's usually because I couldn't guarantee survival in using that move again across the majority of my iterations. Or if I use a specific move, like Dive, even if it does less damage, it's to avoid a specific attack from the enemy like a DoT. Or I don't use something to prolong the fight, like Shell Shield, because the next pet in the line will end the battle faster.

However, in no way do I think my strats are perfect, and I promise I do test out the suggestions. :)

JestersTear

wrote on 2018-12-14 22:16:23

While the achieve "Battle on Zandalar and Kul Tiras" said you had to have a team of lvl 25 pets but it accepted teams of any level for progress (I know, because I didn't have a team of 25's at the time and still got it), this one says 25's and means it. Don't waste your time throwing in level pets for quests that only require one or two pets.

ShinRyuuken

wrote on 2018-12-16 14:20:09

No reason to use level pets anyway, the XP gain was gutted pretty hard in sacrifice to them being able to be battled regardless of WQ or not.

JestersTear

wrote on 2018-12-22 12:37:30

Yeah, but for some reason people are posting strats with level pets. Also reminds people who are trying to cheat their way through with lvl 1's for easier fights

Palorii#1278

wrote on 2018-12-18 18:37:31

Can we add a mass-import rematch string like we had for previous achievements please?

suutar wrote on 2018-12-12 10:56:27

Looks like they went with the "repeatable but lousy xp" option. Surprising; I'd have thought they'd be happy to have a time sink like that. At least there's still pandaria/wod (unless they broke that...)

Corgi

wrote on 2018-12-12 23:16:11

They haven't so far, but I find WoD tamers to be too time-consumptive for the return.

Azrulian#1497

wrote on 2018-12-13 07:15:58

Ashlei in WoD will always be a solid tamer to hit on a daily basis due to the location close to the garrison and ease of fighting. Plus you can level 2 pets in 1 fight!

Jezzibella wrote on 2018-12-13 11:40:26

I put low level alts stationed at each draenor battler equipped with several xp buffs so they dont have to fly somewhere when the buff runs out
this takes me about 20 minutes a day to swap to each toon and complete the battle they are already standing infront of
vesharr in spires being my favourite because there is an inn and mailbox right there for rested xp and easy restock of buffs

RockerChick#1288

wrote on 2018-12-12 23:29:39

They are repeatable as of 12/12/2018 and the tamer does NOT need their WQ active!

Panseit

wrote on 2018-12-13 00:14:17

Source : https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/bfa-experience-changed/45847/3

Amore#1737

wrote on 2018-10-15 00:00:16

I am not able to fight world quest tamers repeatedly. Automated Chaos (Korval Darkbeard) does not interact after completing the world quest first time today.

Lazey

wrote on 2018-10-15 11:52:35

Please keep in mind these achievements and the option to repeat BfA tamer fights are not yet implemented on live servers. We'll have to wait for the release of patch 8.1. But there are people who "work" on these things on PTR, so XuFu keeping up by preparing 8.1 stuff is a logic step so people can add their teams/strats right now.

Amore#1737

wrote on 2018-10-15 22:59:12

Thanks - that makes more sense.

dokeefe1986

wrote on 2018-10-18 16:54:39

I personally doubt they will be repeatable when 8.1 goes live. On the PTR, I think they force the tamers to be repeatable so there is adequate time for testing. Otherwise you might never be able to battle certain tamers enough times simply due to bad world quest RNG. Of course I could be wrong, but usually things are forced to be easily repeatable on PTR so more testing can be done in less time. I would love if they changed them to repeatable, though. So hopefully they do make that change, I just kind of doubt it.

DavidG

wrote on 2018-10-19 23:56:45

I tend to agree with this. We were able to repeat the Argus battles during Legion, but that's because none of them gave much XP to levelling pets. The majority of BFA battles do give useful XP which means if they can be repeated on the same day, it'd be an unacceptable XP Piñata as far as Blizzard are concerned.

The other option, which wories me a little is that they will be repeatable, but the XP will be reduced to the point there's no reason to repeat.

Lazey

wrote on 2018-10-20 04:26:39

I don't think it's for the PTR only, they never supported pet battle testers very much. I think they also "promised" to make these achievements easier in the future (before Argus)... so when they think there's too much pet XP... no doubt they'll nerf this first.

Lankey wrote on 2018-12-12 13:51:30

Currently on live they are repeatable as of 12/12/18

Tom wrote on 2018-11-13 09:49:52

Am I missing something? I have Family Brawler not Battler and it asks you to win 10 pvp battles in each family.

Remte

wrote on 2018-11-13 10:07:06

As said above, it's a feature of patch 8.1, which will arrive on December 11-12th.

TheMaaser wrote on 2018-10-25 02:37:33

Are we going to have a ready-checker for this one like you made for the Legion equivalent?

Jolainne wrote on 2018-10-29 08:25:44

Yes please. So helpful.

Aranesh

wrote on 2018-11-08 12:43:23

Unfortunately I won't have the time to create that.

ShinRyuuken

wrote on 2018-10-15 18:58:33

Think it'd be pretty neat if a secondary achievement was added, maybe rewarding an ultimate stone or two for beating all 19 tamers with each family. I mean, we're going to do it anyway, so why not? haha

Gráinne

wrote on 2018-10-17 10:53:35

Even if RNG works with you, is it even theoretically possible to beat Rogue Azerite with Mechs?

ShinRyuuken

wrote on 2018-10-19 17:55:46

Automated Chaos is likely another tough one. Someone will find a way, I'm sure. You might have to get very specific, but there was a strat for every family for Family Familiar and Family Fighter

DragonsAfterDark

wrote on 2018-10-16 01:17:00

I wasn't here in Legion when they added family-based achievements, but just to check: they aren't going to be buffing any of the tamer's pets, are they? Like changing them from 'rare' to 'epic'?

Eekwibble

wrote on 2018-10-16 09:48:04

No. Blizzard have said they will not be boosting any pets in any way. 25 will remain the level cap and Rare will remain the highest grade for companion pets. No npc pets currently in-game will change.

DragonsAfterDark

wrote on 2018-10-16 10:11:30

Phew. I've been doing some strats for the new Family Battler, and wanted to make sure I wasn't going to have to delete them because I jumped the gun. Thank you!

Eekwibble

wrote on 2018-10-16 20:41:37

I wish I had irl time for ptr... :(

DragonsAfterDark

wrote on 2018-10-16 22:24:06

Well, if they aren't changing anything about the pets/trainers, it's simple enough to adapt strats we've already done, which is what I was doing at first. I also made sure I wasn't encroaching on anyone else's strats when I made the new ones.

Atreb

wrote on 2018-10-15 14:16:26

Can this achievement be started on live servers or must we wait to do these in 8.1

Aranesh

wrote on 2018-10-15 17:35:13

You'll have to wait until 8.1 releases, it's not out yet :-)

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